Mary Lambert’s Tempest of Liberation: Same Love to Self-Love

Mary Lambert joins us for a powerful, intimate, and joyful conversation that bridges music, activism, and radical self-love. From her breakout with Same Love to her new anthem The Tempest, Mary shares how art becomes resistance and why fat liberation is at the heart of her work.

We dive into:

• The story and politics behind The Tempest and why every lyric matters.
• How Mary’s journey through poetry, community, and visibility shaped her fat liberation voice.
• Building the Fat Friendly Medical Provider Directory and fighting for healthcare access.
• Intimacy, desire, and why pleasure isn’t an act of charity, it’s liberation.
• The power of workshops like Everybody Is A Babe to dismantle shame and spark joy.

Mary also gets candid about sex toys (yes, “The Boss” makes an appearance), queer joy, playlists for pleasure, and how choosing authenticity has transformed her life.

✨ This episode is a reminder that liberation isn’t just personal, it’s collective, messy, sexy, and revolutionary.

Learn more about Mary at marylambertsings.com

Chapters

• 0:00 Introducing Mary Lambert
• 8:41 The Tempest: Challenging Authority Through Music
• 16:09 Early Influences in Fat Liberation
• 29:16 Authenticity vs. Capitalism
• 38:15 Creating the Fat-Friendly Medical Directory
• 45:30 Everybody Is a Babe Workshop
• 54:10 Sexuality, Pleasure and Body Acceptance
• 1:00:34 Healing from Trauma and Self-Love

Transcript

SPEAKER_00: 0:00

Today on Big Sexy Chat, we are thrilled to welcome the incredible Mary Lambert. You probably first met her voice in Same Love with MacLemore and Ryan Lewis. And since then, she's been setting the world on fire with her music, poetry, and raw honesty. Mary is a singer, songwriter, poet, teacher, and activist who's turned vulnerability into power, blending art with fat liberation, radical self-love, and community healing. Her new song, The Tempest, is already shaking the walls, and we are so excited to dive into her story, her music, and her heart today.

SPEAKER_01: 0:43

Hey, you made it!

unknown: 0:45

Ha!

SPEAKER_01: 0:46

You're just in time for a little something juicy with crystal and murph. Talking fat. Sex big feels hot. We're breaking all the rules, babe. What you think? It's big. Sexy chair. Sexy chair. Let's go.

SPEAKER_02: 1:18

Welcome back to Big Sexy Chat. This is Crystal, and today we have an extra special guest. We're so excited. Very, very well highly esteemed, well thought of sort of hero in the fat liberation world. We have Mary Lambert today. Hi, Mary. Hi. Thank you so much for your time and my beautiful and amazing co-host, Murph. Hi, Murph.

SPEAKER_03: 1:39

Hi. Hi. Mary, we are so excited to have you here. I'm so glad I'm here. This is I feel like this has been a long time coming. Like it just hasn't, it hasn't lined up schedule-wise or anything. It's like it's the now is the time, and there could not be a better time.

SPEAKER_02: 1:56

Hello and Tempest. Wow. Wow. I just caught it the other day on Instagram. I was like, oh Lord, okay. This is gonna be a great and amazing interview. What a beautiful song. What a beautiful arrangement. Just everything.

SPEAKER_04: 2:08

It's an anthem. Like it just, oh, it is like touch your soul kind of music.

SPEAKER_03: 2:16

Thank you. Yeah, it was it's one of the best songs I've ever written. I think it was one of those ones where I just really was like, I want every line to matter. I want every line to be super intentional. And I got really into Shakespeare for a while. And I loved Shakespeare all through like high school when I discovered him, not to brag. Uh I feel like I kind of discovered him first.

SPEAKER_05: 2:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 2:46

And he was a little underground before I got um into him. Um but when I uh I took this like online course uh kind of studying each play, going into each play. And uh I really loved the Tempest. And I thought there were a lot of parallels between, you know, capitalism and colonialism and the way that men feel like they have domain over, you know, I mean, cis straight older white men, especially in Congress with power, that feel like they have domain over women's bodies, over people's bodies, over anything that they deem fit. And, you know, the Tempest has a lot of the that underlying message. And eventually, like the you know, the protagonist, like Prospero, eventually like understands to like, you know, that all things belong and he can't he shouldn't control everything. But it's like I kind of wrote the Tempest from the perspective of no, we sh we tell Prospero what to do.

SPEAKER_02: 3:59

Yes, it's a new time, y'all. It's a new time. I want to start by saying that I re-listened to your interview with Plus Mommy Jen, who's a good friend of mine. And I was so excited to see that you actually are friends with some of my friends, like Sonia Renee Taylor and Denise Jolly. Um, we love Jen here at Kirby Girl. I love yeah, big sexy chat, not curvy girl. But um Jen and I met at the Body Love conference in Arizona in 2014, and that's why I became friends with Sonia Renee Taylor and Denise Jolly and and Jen. Oh, we all just love her, but that was a great interview. And um love a lot of my people in my world, my fat liberation world, are sort of knowing you about the whole um medical bullshit that we all put up with uh when you're fat. So for that reason, I I bow to you. Thank you for that and for your list, and it's amazing. And anyway, um I I just love Sonia Nae Taylor, her books, and they make she makes you think. She like really makes you think, and what an amazing person.

SPEAKER_03: 4:58

Yes. It was, I mean, I got so spoiled so early. I was because I was in the poetry world, I was in the spoken word world doing slam when I was like 18. So Denise Jolly came up to me when I was 18 and was like, I love your poetry. I want you're a you know, you're a rock star. And um, and then I met Sonia doing poetry when I was like 20, 21, you know, and watching somebody um speak truth to power and talk about their body in such a, you know, an explicitly like radically loving way, as she does. Um it's just incredibly powerful. And Denise Jolly also had a photo series that like was really life-changing for me as well. So I had this almost like necessary upbringing to bring me closer to like fat liberation and understand collective liberation in that pursuit.

SPEAKER_02: 6:04

They will definitely get you there. Um, just to brag, they were both in one of my lingerie fashion shows for fatties. And they were just so amazing. Just they own it. They they're not just talking it, they're they're they own it, they live in it, and they're just beautiful and smart and strong. And what an amazing way for you to grow up. Holy crap.

SPEAKER_03: 6:25

Yeah, that's so neat. I'm can't. I bet it was a I bet it was a freaking blast.

SPEAKER_02: 6:31

It was really great. Oh, a bunch of you know, 45 fat women in lingerie. We we got a lot of press, let's just say. Uh yeah, they do. Not very much, but they actually do. It's kind of shocking. I know. I know Merv had a question.

SPEAKER_04: 6:48

I yeah, I was thinking of with the with the Temptist and what you know, the poetry of the things that you you're so um detailed in how you, you know, describe the the whole scenario. What's a line that you thought you were gonna cut, but you were just like, no, I'm keeping this?

SPEAKER_03: 7:10

Oh yeah. I mean a couple. Because I was like, I could get in trouble for this. I was I've been very scared of like, okay, if this gets like, I don't know, discovered in hyper conservative circles. Like I I you know, I do have fear for sure. Um, but if my body was a gun, you'd give a shit about me. It feels really, you know, it's very in your face. And and I think to some people it feels radical. And to me, it just feels like that's just the truth, you know. That's what I'm just I'm just reading the room. Like I'm just I'm reading what's what's happening. That's you know, you can't tell me that that's not happening, that you'd you know, just the idea that you'd force people to give birth or sentence them to prison, or yeah, to criminalize them or criminalize the doctors that perform health care is just Looney Tunes, all of it.

SPEAKER_04: 8:14

Absolutely. Well, and I think what's so nice about your work is that it's not just one thing, you know, it's like, okay, there's fat liberation, but there's liberation for so many other things too. And you pull no punches, like you're just like that. That's why I thought like anthem, because it's just like the rally cry of of this, what feels like this generation.

SPEAKER_03: 8:36

Yeah, I appreciate that. I feel like having my first big song be Same Love, like really set me up for a kind of uh urgency of message and that people can handle a message that you think they might not be able to handle in a song. And, you know, touring around the world and watching crowds of people, girls, women singing, she keeps me warm and not caring what the pronoun is because it's just about love. Um really just it was instructive of how one could have a career and how I could make music that mattered to me, and that social messages don't have to be watered down. Like you can be explicit in your in your social messaging, and and poetry did that for me as well. So I'm just doing what feels the most natural. And I think when I was on a major label and you know, pursuing the I call hot dog eyes when you have the hot dog eyes and you want the thing and you want the fame, and you know, when you're yeah, when you're chasing that, you do feel like, okay, how do I compromise maybe my ultimate dream with getting the most people and getting the reach? And um I don't know, I got to a place where I was like, I I have to accept that I'm just kind of complex and that I have different things that I want to do. And I don't, I I can't stress over marketing my soul. Like I just can't, and not I'm not in the business of doing that. So I'm going to just go forward with who I am and just hope, like trust fall into that.

SPEAKER_02: 10:36

I noticed in your interview with Jen, it felt like maybe you're on a little bit of a cusp of something. And then what I got from it, from you and your your history since then, just that you decided authenticity was the most important thing. Capitalism's great, but also capitalism sucks.

SPEAKER_03: 10:54

Absolutely. And I realized that I don't know, it just feels really good to sleep at night, knowing that I like I am I'm really true to myself. And also that's a its own privilege. Like I feel like there are some people that don't have the privilege to make those like moral choices or ethical choices all the time. And I do think I think there are times in my life where I have it's gone too far where I'm like, I really could have used that money from Nestle and do something for their tea brand. But I at the time I was just like, no, I can't do anything with Nestle, like, you know, I I don't want to be a part of that. And at the time, you know, I ended up really struggling at that time.

SPEAKER_02: 11:44

So I think it doesn't always um, it doesn't always it's not always easy, but like I think um they're on all the lists, man. Yeah, they're on every list.

SPEAKER_04: 11:56

Yeah. Yes. So for some people it's survival, and that makes sense. Like that they're having to make those choices sometimes that are morally like, ooh, this is kind of shady, you know, and it's hard to be that authentic self of like I'm not gonna water down for you and I'm not gonna change who I am. But I can see I'm I'm a therapist. So one of the things I see, you know, is like sometimes we have to survive in that environment, even when you know, we we know like I'm opposed to this or you know, I don't want to be entrenched in this.

SPEAKER_03: 12:31

100%. Yeah, and I'm sure there was a way that I could have done it in a way that felt, you know, congruent with my beliefs. But I think at the time I was just like, I'm not in dire straits. I'm just I can't I can't do it, I can't take it. But I I know I think I feel like I've infuriated some people on my team. I'm like, no, sorry, I can't do it. I know you got me this opportunity, but it doesn't feel good.

SPEAKER_02: 12:56

Well, also they want to get paid.

SPEAKER_03: 12:57

So yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_02: 12:59

This is so weirdest kind of uh sort of take you off the line a little bit on this topic, but Murph will relate to this. My day job is removing facial hair. Oh, really? I do electrology, which of course I always say I remove your extra hair, but sometimes I'm like, Am I a part of the patriarchy? Because am I like, you can't wear a beard, ladies, you have to have fair, you know, you can't have any facial hair. And then I'm like, oh, but then like, no, but I'm only doing this to help people who want to remove their extra hair. And so I have that conflict sometimes too. I know I'm fine, I know it's okay. Yes, but sometimes I do sort of toss that around in my brain, like, am I being authentic? Is this fuck the patriarchy, Crystal? Rock a beard. But then I'm like, I I'm not ready to rock a beard.

SPEAKER_03: 13:39

Yeah, totally. Absolutely. Yeah, I mean, I think that you're you're touching on something that, you know, I think happens in a lot of queer spaces with people who are like, I want to be able to have a beard and wear a dress and be accepted, and they are out of necessity to live their truest self, will do that. And there are people who are like, I it's too dangerous for me to do that, and I am it is easier for me to fit within the binary. I can't even explore that in my head because it's not safe. And that has to, I feel like there has to be space for people who are comfortable shifting the paradigm and want, like, you know, are okay, comfortable, maybe not comfortable, but just accept it as a necessary part of collective liberation to live authentically and present themselves congruent with who they are internally, and people who are like, I don't feel comfortable doing that, and that's fine, you know.

SPEAKER_02: 14:58

Yeah, I do have a lot of trans clients too. Obviously, and that's partly why I did this. I go into this career because I wanted to I wanted to be able to help. But um, I did have a lady who was 102 recently come into my office. Y'all, if I'm 102, I'm rocking a beard. Just will let you know. That's too too no, no torture at 102 to my neck, but that's a whole other story. But anyway.

SPEAKER_01: 15:18

Totally.

SPEAKER_02: 15:19

Yeah, crazy, crazy. What are you gonna say, Murph?

SPEAKER_04: 15:21

I I was just gonna say, you know, um, part of that it is the the issues that we're talking about in terms of like, you know, trying to fit in and trying to make these things survival-led and and or not survival-led, but more authentic. Um you built a medical directory with one of our dear friends, Reagan, and I'm curious, like, what were the harm patterns that kind of led to that um list creation?

SPEAKER_03: 15:50

Oh, it's like one of the best things I've ever done. It also is like there, if there's a good side to bipolar disorder, like it is it's getting something, it's it's mania, getting something insane done. I was like compiling that list for like, I'd wake up at like 8 a.m. and I'd work on it until 8 p.m. And I just, it was so important to me, like to get it done. And I it became a need because I run a workshop called Everybody Is a Babe. And I was working with people one-on-one. And every time I met with somebody, they're like, well, I'm dealing with this health issue, but I'm too scared to go to the doctor. Or I went to this doctor and they told me I had to lose weight in order to even see them the next time. They won't even see me for my issue until I lose weight. And I was like, that's not okay. It's not okay. We need to find you like a fat-friendly doctor. We need to find you somebody that is gonna treat what you're actually going through without prescribing something that is not helpful for anyone. So um I found Aubrey Gordon's uh list of community threads. Aubrey Gordon had posted about two different times about, hey, crowdsource, you know, uh doctors in your areas. And then someone would comment, do you have anybody in Arlington, Virginia? And then there'd be like, hey, I go see this awesome doctor. Here's my OBGYN. There was the Fat Friendly Docs. Um, there was um uh I credit everybody on there. Nicola Salmon has the fat fertility places, Mia O'Malley also did community threads. There were just places from all of these different things, and I would find myself spending an hour and a half combing these threads, help trying to help the people that I was working with. And I would find and be like, okay, there's this person in Columbus, Ohio that somebody had a good experience with, you know, it was just like, you know, asking for scraps, you know? Um, and so I decided to compile everything. Um, and then I started a form where people can submit um their positive experiences, or be like, that person shouldn't be on the list. Um and then yeah, it's just grown. It has the, I think the main provider list for like PCPs has over a thousand um providers. And then I have a second page of specialists, which has about a thousand specialists. I have like there's people worldwide. You can find somebody, you know, in Canada, Australia, England. So it feels, it feels good. It feels like it's been very helpful to like tell my people who take my workshop to um reference. And I've I've received really good feedback. Actually, it was so wild. I just did, I hosted a poetry event in Seattle um a couple weeks ago. And I was talking to this woman who just she kind of stumbled in um and she was just doing poetry, and she's like, I've never, you know, I guess I really didn't know your music that well. I'm a um, I'm in the eating disorder world, the dietitian world. And I was like, oh, I'm like, that's actually like another facet of my work. Like I um I did something called the weight neutral leads list, and she was like, that's you. You did that. And it was like it was so gratifying. It was like my rock star moment, like a true rock star moment. She was like, We use that list all the time. We use that list in our clinic, we pass it around.

SPEAKER_04: 19:49

Oh, that's incredible.

SPEAKER_03: 19:50

And it makes me so happy.

SPEAKER_04: 19:52

Definitely. Well, and to know that you're not only helping from the super creative, amazing side with your music and your art, and then you know, the the factual, you know, black and white, find somebody, like it's so cool that you have um that nimbleness and that people, you know, like you're hitting it on so many different levels. It's so cool because if someone doesn't find you in this route, they're probably gonna find you on the other route.

SPEAKER_03: 20:23

It's fun, but there's also there's multiple Mary Lamberts. So who know, you know, who knows? Who knows who is who? Do I even know which one I am? I don't know.

SPEAKER_02: 20:34

Are you AI, Mary? Maybe you're AI.

SPEAKER_03: 20:36

No, deep fake, Mary. I hate AI so much. Every time it like shows up as like like you have to use it. I'm like, get out of here. No, my brain is precious. Stop taking away my original thoughts.

SPEAKER_02: 20:51

Right. Mary, do you know about the new list they're working on now? Reagan and Julianne and a bunch of other people were all as a collective calling all these different hospitals and stuff to find out how big their MRI machines are, and they're trying to Reagan emailed me and told me that that was that was underway.

SPEAKER_03: 21:09

And I was like, super like, yes, we need to combine forces. That kicked everything off, really, was the my experience getting an MRI and um being rejected, and having gone through the whole process of like getting out of my clothes, I had a I had torn my MCL. I tore my MCL, I was in like pain, I couldn't walk on it, I didn't have any answers. And you know, not only did they not have scrubs that fit my body, which was crazy to me. Um yeah, the scrubs like went up halfway to my butt. And so it was just like, whatever, I just need to get this done. I'll I'll humiliate myself. I don't care. I just need to get the scan. And then to not even get the scan, it was just like, I just remember crying and the tech, you know, she kind of looked at me and she was like, you know, this this coil, this, this thing is is tied on even me. And I was like, you know, she said, Don't feel, don't feel bad, don't feel bad. And I was like, I don't feel bad. If you see that we have a different body size, why would you put me through this? Why would you make me go through this if you understand and know that? I'm not I'm not upset or embarrassed. I'm mad. I'm mad that you would do this. And I had a moment where I was like, I'm just gonna cry in my car. Like, let me just hold it together so I can just cry in my car. And then I had this like epiphany of like, who am I protecting? Who am I protecting with like keeping my tears to myself? Like, this has caused harm. Like you caused harm, and I'm I'm not gonna protect you from it. Like, I'm gonna have feelings about it because I don't want you to do this again. Don't do this to people.

SPEAKER_02: 23:08

Right. It's traumatizing. It's bullshit that a medical provider can't accommodate our bodies. It's not like, oh, I'll just come back when I lose 100 pounds. No, fat people fucking exist. How about be prepared for us because we are the majority of the fucking population? 100%.

SPEAKER_03: 23:26

Absolutely. Yeah, I mean, and it's like that's a thing too, is like it's not it's not going into Prada and being like, I why don't you which honestly fuck like Prada should have our side, you know what I mean? Like, why not? But this is a medical thing, like medical accessibility is like that's number one. Like pretty basic, pretty basic.

SPEAKER_04: 23:50

It's a necessity.

SPEAKER_03: 23:51

Yep, yeah, yeah. Well, I love that. I love that y'all are making that. It makes me so happy.

SPEAKER_04: 23:57

We have to brag about our Asherly. Asherly uh created a list for um Oregon and Portland and that area. So um I I think you guys might probably have similar, you know, people on the list. You guys might have to fuse that list too.

SPEAKER_03: 24:14

Yeah. Oh my god, I want to. Yes, I would love to.

SPEAKER_02: 24:17

That's great to do it. PNW Fat Friendly Medical Provider Directory.

SPEAKER_03: 24:22

Yes.

SPEAKER_02: 24:24

That's awesome.

SPEAKER_04: 24:25

That's good. I was just gonna say, you you mentioned um everybody is a babe. So can you tell us a little bit more about that and um just like how long it's been going on and what it is so that folks can go explore it?

SPEAKER_03: 24:39

Yeah. I mean, I started my like fat positive journey um in like 2011, um, after being around Denise Jolly and Sonia Renee and like and Rachel Wiley and Rachel McGibbons and just seeing how um possible it was to love myself. Um at that time, I was so committed to dieting. I was so committed to being in a smaller body. It was something I thought about constantly. I had an eating disorder. It was like food was something I was obsessed with that I always thought about shape. I was always wearing shapeware. I wear shapeware under t-shirts. I was, it was just exhausting. So exhausting. It was torturous, and it was it wasn't just that, it was like just how I was perceived and that that's just sort of obsession. Um and I went over to a friend's house, a fr my friend Sean, and they had on their fridge riots, not diets. And it just like blew my mind. Like I was like, what what do you mean? Why wouldn't you diet? If you're if you're bigger, I don't understand why you wouldn't be trying to lose weight. I don't see what's so bad about that. It's better to be thin, you know. And then I had my education. It was like, you gotta learn. Yeah. And then I got thrust into the public spotlight as, you know, performing with Madonna at the Grammys and performing with Jennifer Hudson at the VMAs and doing all of the press and then signing to the label and going through that process of loving myself on a public stage was I mean, it was challenging, but it was also the best possible thing I could have done because I wanted to do it right. I don't think there's a right way to do it, but I wanted to be helpful to people the way that Denise Jolly and Sonia had been for me. And I remember seeing also Substantia Jones's um at a positivity project. And I remember looking at those photos after I had been like, I'm body positive, I'm, you know, so I'm a bigger girl, whatever. And I remember looking at those photos and being like, oh, I'm uncomfortable and I'm I'm envious and I'm and I I don't get it. I don't see how someone could be happy in a body like this. I don't I don't understand. And I think they're lying because I still had all of my internalized fat phobia and that I still had not addressed. And it, you know, I went through a period where I would go to I go to a store and I'd be like, wow, they have plus sizes if they went up to 2x. And it would be like, they're so size, they're size accepting here. Wow. And I was starting to compile my own list of, you know, like plus size stores. Like, I'd be like, go to Zara. They have plus sizes. But it was like insofar as it applied to me. And I think it was, it wasn't until I started really diving into fat liberation and really realizing how much the disability justice movement informed fat liberation, how much, you know, the examining white supremacy and all of the, you know, the caste system that, you know, Isabel Wilkerson talks about, like all of that, the hierarchy hadn't occurred to me. And the proximity to whiteness or the proximity to thinness were almost synonymous. And I had not realized how much I was still clinging to the scraps that I had. And that was going, that was never going to be true happiness. That I was never going to find true liberation or freedom from that. And it was also not going to be helpful as somebody that was at the time like a public figure. Um, so just diving, and I just like read a bunch. And um during the pandemic is when I started doing um heavy research and decided that I wanted to do this workshop. So that's initially how it started. So I launched it in 2021.

SPEAKER_02: 29:18

I was just gonna sneak in a comment that there's somebody here who might have been photographed by substantia. Who that might that be?

SPEAKER_04: 29:26

It was me. Um my uh my uh for one of my first um kind of steps into um body positivity, fat liberation, that sort of thing was I did some modeling and um I had met some different people in that process. And um Substantia was going to be coming out to San Jose, and I don't live far from there. So um Crystal had her at her house, and I was able to do um individual photos, and then she did the Valentine's Day series with myself and my my partner and um That was really liberating to just sit in somebody else's backyard completely naked and just like ooh, like feel the air and like not be, you know, scared of what was going on or how it looked. Cause I just kind of exactly what you said, you know, like I'd seen her photos initially and it just kind of like this is so jarring for me to like see this and and really recognize like wow, this has this has opened my eyes to this whole different lens of life, right? Of like just like this exists and these people are sexy, and how did I not see myself like this? So um, yeah, Substantia's uh one of our favorites. We we've had her on the podcast, and um, she's just she's so creative and so amazing. And um, I could see where you know a lot of people have that that look of like, wow, this opened my eyes and this is so different. I think a lot of people have that with your art too.

SPEAKER_03: 30:55

Oh, that's that's very generous. I appreciate that. But yeah, that series actually, the Valentine's series, I include that as an exercise in the workshop. Visit this, visit Substantia Jones's work and write down how it makes you feel. And if that's an oh if that's an alert to you that you have more work to do or you know what that says to you, like commit, commit yourself to to seeing more fat bodies, to like exposing yourself to that. I mean, I just I feel like we've gone so backwards in so many places where the visibility, the representation is there for for the people, for the people that want to see it, but for the greater public, when it's you know mainstream, there it's just not there. And um, and especially like I'm a big reality TV romance, I mean Love Island, The Bachelor, all of them, any, any romantic thing. I'm just like, I just love it. And to just think of how many seasons of The Bachelor there have been and The Bachelorette and Love Island, and not a single fat person has been on. And I also understand why they're not gonna choose the fat person. The fat person's gonna, you know, they have to have everybody look kind of, you know, but body diversity is so normal. And I think that's what a lot of people yes, a hundred percent. Like, I think that's what you know frustrates me and is is what I I really urge people to think about that people are fat for as many reasons as people are thin. We're not all meant to be thin. Like it is, it is like make peace with your body and don't like declare stop declaring war. Like it is a it's a gift to be alive. And how much space I now have in my brain to do things. I'm growing corn, okay. I'm growing, I have a feeling sunflowers. I'm like, I'm gonna feed this whole block. That's what I'm doing. I got plans.

SPEAKER_04: 33:07

That's incredible. Um, you know, we're big sexy chats, so we talk a lot about intimacy and and sex and all those fun things. Um talking about, you know, really starting to accept your body and recognizing um that there is body diversity and that sort of thing, what would you say surprised you most about your pleasure journey?

SPEAKER_03: 33:29

I think the most powerful, like formative thing was that someone that chose to be with me intimately wasn't doing it by act of charity, which is what you think. I mean, it's uh it's what you think when the world tells you that you're, you know, not good enough or lovable. Yeah, or you should be you should be smaller. That um, you know, I'd been in relationships where someone would be like, I mean, you're hot, but imagine how hot you would be if you lost some weight, you know. That was like, what do you do with that? How do I hold that? How do I feel safe intimately, you know?

SPEAKER_02: 34:16

Bye-bye. Yeah, that's horrible. That's next, is what I say. Next. Yeah, that's horrible. Are you gonna do any more Babe Camps just to go back to that for real quick? Are you gonna do any more of the Babe Camp or are you gonna retire that?

SPEAKER_03: 34:28

I released a self-paced course, so I'm I'm encouraging that. Um, every year I say this is gonna be the last year because I can't because I end up putting the album aside or I kind of put my other work aside. But I literally just had we had our last session um yesterday, and I was just crying, and it's like it's just a big cry fest because everybody is like, you know, connected and everybody's friends and they love each other and they're like, I love you, room two, you know, and they have their inside jokes, and I just love them and I love them for like for trying and for being open to learning things and for you know, for committing to to loving themselves radically and trying. There are some people who've taken the workshop every single time I've I've run it, which is like 10 cycles. I used to offer it. Um, if you took it once, you could take it again as many times as you wanted for free. I stopped doing that because I was I was losing money. Um, but uh so now I think I'm gonna do it once a summer. So I plan on doing it next summer again. That's the plan.

SPEAKER_04: 35:37

That's awesome. And I think people forget how much of a healing space there is in community and um having, you know, like my so in therapy, it's like trying to get someone to go to group is like pulling teeth, right? Like, I don't want to go to group. It's so stupid. I can just do it on my own. But it's like you're missing a whole element of community there and and um building that, having other people that you can talk to and have those, like you said, those little moments. Um, it's it's so helpful. I I really I'm glad that you're doing it. And if you retire it, at least you have the self-paced one. Like, you know, it's still good out into the community. Yeah, I appreciate it.

SPEAKER_02: 36:17

It's kind of like going to an L non meeting, my first Al Anon meeting. I was like, holy shit, other people had the same life as I I had no idea. I was like literally, you could have knocked me over with a feather. I had no idea. I thought it was just my weird life, you know?

SPEAKER_03: 36:32

Totally. I feel like that's such a huge component of it, is just being like, oh, I'm not alone in this. And I think there's a feeling of like, okay, my suffering is not unique in this way. And if it's not unique, and we all need help, and we all could use therapy for this, and we've all been harmed by the system in this way, then maybe the onus isn't on me. And maybe the issue it doesn't have to do with my body. Maybe at there's actually an issue with the culture at large. And I get to be a part of um a group of people that say, I'm gonna in my circle, it's not gonna be okay. Body shame is gonna stop in my circle, you know. Um, and and you know, a big tenet of the workshop that I try to do is really strip away all of the metrics that we use to evaluate ourselves, especially, you know, I call it aesthetic indifference or that weight neutrality, and um, and you know, like maybe do a mirror moratorium or whatever it is, or um, and then, you know, desirability is just like it's a hell of a drug. And I understand why people, you know, pursue weight loss because the it is you are so conditioned to believe that that is the only way that you will be desirable to people. And it's just not true. Now being in like, you know, having had relationships or being in a sexual relationship with somebody who really does like my body really is about my body, and it's not like it's not an act of charity. It's not, it's not someone just being like, I guess I'll just deal with this because I like your personality and you have a good, you have good inner beauty. You know, it's like, no, I'm also sexy and a like a sexual human being and deserve to have, you know, positive sexual experiences. And that is possible. And I think I can't remember who wrote the article, but I think Caleb Luna posted it. Oh, I wish I could remember who wrote it, but it was basically about, or maybe Caleb Luna wrote it. I can't remember, but it was basically about why do we categorize things as fetishist when they're not dominant, when they're not of the dominant, you know, if if you're not attracted to white, straight, you know, thin, blue-eyed people, you are considered, it's considered devious, you know, that like if you're attracted to a fat person, it must be fetishist, you know? And and that really opened my eyes to just being like, yeah, I mean, this this fear for a lot of fat people, like, well, if somebody's pursuing me because I'm fat, like that, that feels bad. And like, I think I used to feel that way, and now I don't feel that way. It's like, no, then I know that I can be myself and that I don't have to, you know, I don't have to, they're not secretly, you know, fingers crossed, hope you will lose weight during like hope I can love you enough for you to lose weight. You know what I mean? So it's it's it's it's important, it's just important to find somebody who likes your body.

SPEAKER_02: 40:02

It gets weird. It gets weird when it's all they're into, right? If they only date fat people or they only are that to me feels fetishy. But I'm attracted personally, I'm attracted to people of all different sizes. So I mean, I assume if you're in bed with me because you're you're into me, not because of my fat.

SPEAKER_04: 40:19

Yeah, absolutely. How would you say desirability and sexiness, all that sort of thing plays into your music and your art? Like, I'm I'm curious, like, what do you consider even like the sexiest lyric you've ever wrote?

SPEAKER_03: 40:36

You know, I've I've released or I've I've written a lot of songs that never got released, especially when I was on the label. I worked with some like EDM artists. Um, and so I wrote like a very sexy song that never got out. Um that immediately comes to mind. Um and I'm trying to think of I'm trying to think of one of those lyrics, but I'm just a sappy, I'm just a sappy Sally. Like I think, you know, on my first my first LP, I wrote a song called So Far Away, and that um chorus was Kiss Me Like the World Is Gonna Disappear. And and like, you know, that kind of passionate, fiery kind of thing. I guess that's the sexiest one I can think of. But you know, it's really interesting because I started writing songs when I was nine years old. I yeah, I wrote my first song when I was nine, and then when I was 13, I had a collection of six, and I was like, mom, I'm ready to be famous. Let's find me an agent. Um, can we call Oprah? Like, what do we need to do? And I just was like, I was just ready. I wanted it. And um, I found that it was a way to get people to like me, where I'd bring my guitar to school, or I'd be like, everybody, come to the piano. And if I had a crush on somebody, I'd be like, I'm gonna, I wrote a song about you. And it was like it was a way for me to feel like I had a sense of value. And I think it's it's been hard work to also disentangle my self-worth to the art I make, which does feel like it is a part of my soul. It is important to me, but I can't, I had to let go of it as a as a way, as a tool to get people to like me or to, you know. And I would find like there was a I remember I was really into this girl, and she wouldn't, she was not into me, and then she'd see me play, and then she'd be like, I want to fuck. I'd be like, Okay, that's fine, and then you know, and then it'd be like, no, not really interested in you see me perform again. Okay, I want to date you now, and like that's hard. And also I was like, I'll accept it. That's fine.

SPEAKER_04: 43:02

I'm curious, like, what's a song that makes you feel sexy? What what kind of music if you can't pick a song?

SPEAKER_03: 43:11

I mean, I love I'm like an instrumental person. It's so funny. I was like, I was looking for like a sexy playlist, you know, the other night, as one does. And um, and I I am so I get so distracted by sound. You can't have lyrics, obviously. I can't have lyrics when stuff's going down. And if anything gets like cheesy or it's a weird, like, you know, a midi sound or like you know, like a fake saxophone, I'm gonna, I'm gonna have to stop that nighttime activity to skip it. Yeah, so it gets it can be very distracting. But if you've got a good one, so I do have, I have I have a playlist, a curated playlist. Um I really love um I think it's Romanas Gutierrez, um, just like really vibey um uh guitar, like um, what kind of guitar is that? Classical guitar. Like that's nice. That's a good vibe.

SPEAKER_04: 44:18

Sexy vibes. Are you willing to put that playlist uh on your your website so that we can all go and download the curated sex playlist from Mary Lambert?

SPEAKER_02: 44:32

Festivities, professities. Mine's like uh Prince, you sexy motherfucker. So I don't understand.

SPEAKER_03: 44:38

I do not really you like the lyrics. I can't say the lyrics.

SPEAKER_02: 44:42

What about you, Murph? Do you have one?

SPEAKER_04: 44:44

Um, I kind of like a mixture of both. I think you know, but I uh very much like Mary, like I want it to be kind of softer, you know, uh have like the the vibe beat kind of thing matter more than the the lyric. Yeah, because yeah, it's really easy to get pulled out of something when you're hearing other words and things. So I I get that.

SPEAKER_03: 45:05

I think I think too, as I've like begun and started producing and composing. I composed for a documentary film a couple years ago, and I've produced for other artists. So I have my home studio and I, you know, I engineer. And now that I have like I feel like my ear has been tuned and also ruined for like just enjoying things. I can't just enjoy anything anymore. I'm like, oh, I just I feel like that could have been EQ'd differently. Or like, what are they doing to the vocal? Like, I mean, fix your auto tune, like spend an extra day fixing your auto tune for fuck's sake. So, like, so I'm just I if it if it's on during like a a like sexy time, I'm like, I can't help but think about it. I like pure silence, nothing.

SPEAKER_04: 45:56

Just the sound of a a boot stuck in mud, only wetter. There's a comedian that said that. And it just makes me think of like, yeah, just want to hear the raw sounds.

SPEAKER_02: 46:08

Yes, no, no, uh, no macaroni sounds for you.

SPEAKER_03: 46:10

Yeah, macaroni.

SPEAKER_04: 46:11

Yeah, macaroni.

SPEAKER_03: 46:12

Well, and I'm a I'm a talker too. Like, I need to I need to be able to ex. I'm very expressive. I need to validate, and I also want to just tally. I mean, I'm like, I like this. I, you know, I want this. This is good.

SPEAKER_02: 46:26

That's perfect. That's great. You own your own sexuality, you own your own, your own pleasure in your climax.

SPEAKER_04: 46:32

Yeah. Absolutely. I'm into it. Well, the final question that we always ask is um a sex-related question, and I'm curious your answer. So um, it's favorite sex toy, sexual aid, um, lube, or intimacy tip that you would want to give us. And you can give us all if you really wanted to, but something in those lines.

SPEAKER_02: 46:56

And Mary, I just want to share with you that Tigris Osborne, Reagan Chastain, they've all shared these things with us for the most part. So don't be shy.

SPEAKER_03: 47:04

Okay, I have like so many thoughts and so many things I want to share. The first is like, this is not me, but it is it's one of my favorite moments of my life of, you know, when you're just like a horny kid and you're just like any scrap of like any sexual. I mean, I don't know how kids are now with like such easy access to the internet or Pornhub or whatever. But when I was growing up, like there was not like we could not, we did not have anything. My I used to babysit for a for a woman who was a lesbian, and um she, I was probably like 12. And I and she she went to work and I just went through her like bookshelf and then I saw the joy of lesbian sex, and I was like, holy shit. And I was just so excited to find diagrams or anything, and there was just very few things, and then I opened this chapter, chapter seven, was the joy of pubic hair. And and there was just like it was, it was uh the description was like pubic hair can be very sensual, and you might even consider braiding it or putting a little bow on. And I was like, is this what lesbian sex is like? It's like braiding each other's hair in this way.

SPEAKER_02: 48:28

But it's also very, very, very fuck the patriarchy, which I love.

SPEAKER_03: 48:36

But you know what, what is true is I really do like pubic hair. So that that is uh that is a thing. Um, but let me think. I I think my favorite, I there's um there's a dildo I really like that um my partner and I found, and it's called the boss. And it is just it's like curved perfectly. It's like a very good like texture, it's great in the strap, and it is just really it's just it's a good time every time.

SPEAKER_02: 49:12

Mary, do you know who makes that one? No, I don't even know. Do you know? I don't. The boss, huh? That sounds good. The boss great name.

SPEAKER_03: 49:21

I know, and it's hot pink, it's really beautiful.

SPEAKER_04: 49:23

Oh hot, yes. Yeah, the boss gets shit done.

SPEAKER_03: 49:27

Hell yeah, a boss bitch. I don't know about you, but I'm a boss babe. Yes, exactly. Yes, okay. I want to see. Um I'm looking it up because now I want to from Fun Factory. Oh, okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 49:39

German, German company.

SPEAKER_03: 49:41

Wow.

SPEAKER_02: 49:43

Perfect for size scenes, it says screens, yeah. I love it. And yeah, your partner is open to sex toys, clearly. Yes, thank goodness.

SPEAKER_03: 49:54

Yeah, but you know, I did not used to be open to sex toys. Like I was very like, I was a purist. Oh, yeah. You know, it was just more like I want to feel you, I want to feel like the person that I'm with, and like, you know, it was just very much hands mouth, those sort of things.

SPEAKER_02: 50:14

But sex toys are um they're like a teammate, they just kind of help out the get you to the goal, they don't replace the person. Yeah, because they're not warm, they can't kiss you, they can't hold you, but they can get the job done. They're really good, they're a good team player if you need one. But um, yeah, they're we you know, we I I've been selling sex toys for like 22 years now. Uh-huh. So I'm a big fan. But yeah, I used to do a lot of home parties and I would do home parties for for gay women. And I would meet these women, they're like, oh no, I can't have anything that penetrates my vagina. Um, we're we're gold star lesbians or something like that. I was like, what? Why, why, why turn down any kind of possible pleasure? And you you so I would think that you both might want to try to wear a strap on, you know, but they were like, no, we don't do that. I'm like, how sad though. Don't don't limit yourself. There's it's a lot of fun out there.

SPEAKER_03: 51:09

Yeah, I feel like I've I've been with with plenty of people that would not prefer penetration or don't. And I think it's like I think there is some amount of like, it's not for that, you know, and it is not, it doesn't feel good. It's not validating gender-wise, you know, that it actually is not, it doesn't feel like the best possible way to give and receive. And it I I um I can understand it, you know.

SPEAKER_02: 51:39

Yeah, I can see that too. Just like, but there's like have you been to a hustler store? I'm like, I want to try every single thing in there.

SPEAKER_03: 51:45

It's true. I mean, and I do, I wonder if there is some, there's some like maybe, you know, emotional stuff there or the, you know, the patriarchal like association. Um, but you know, I I I think about this a lot of like my own kinks and my own my own relationship to my sexuality. So I came out in 2006. I came out when I was 17, and I remember being like, because I was I was sexually abused. I was sexually abused by my dad, and I was I was um I experienced a sexual assault when I was in high school. And I had all of these horrible associations with men, with guys, and and and specifically a penis. You know what I mean? Like it it was it was the experience of being violated. And I remember this feeling of like, is this why I'm gay? Like, is uh do I need to resolve this thing? I mean, because that I growing up Christian, I grew up Pentecostal and then I became like an evangelical, you know, Christian. And um, and you were just sort of taught that that was something you needed to heal. And if I just heal that enough, if I just if I, you know, work with God, pray, then I will heal that wound and I will find a husband.

SPEAKER_02: 53:13

And well, duh. That's what everybody's goal is, Mary. We have to land a man.

SPEAKER_03: 53:19

But I don't know. I I remember that feeling of yeah, just kind of agonizing over why I was gay, and then eventually getting to a place of it doesn't matter. It actually doesn't matter. I could be there are plenty of people who are gay that haven't been sexually abused, you know, like it actually doesn't matter. And I am fine, I'm like, I am happy as I am. I feel incredibly fulfilled. I have I have loving, you know, I have a loving relationship. I've had loving partners. I've been a like I'm I'm lucky. I I feel happy and safe and great about it. And there's no like I can heal that wound of having sexual trauma and still be gay.

SPEAKER_02: 54:13

It's kind of like the old trope about why people are fat. You must have been abused, or you were assaulted, or you hate yourself, or you're trying to solve some wound by overeating so people won't look at you, or whatever all those bizarre things are. It's very it sounds very similar to your yes.

SPEAKER_03: 54:31

I actually I talk about that exact thing in my workshop because Judith Matz and I, well, she wrote the article for psychology today, but referenced some of my quotes, in which, you know, talking about that's that is all under the presupposition that um fat people are undesirable, which is just like and what says who says fucking who. And yeah, maybe maybe it's trauma leads us to coping mechanisms. Some of those coping mechanisms can be emotional eating. And if you if that can be a part of it, but to like assign someone's body to a trauma, then what are we saying when we look in the mirror that my body is representative of a trauma? Do I really want to take care of a body that way? Am I really gonna want to like go outside and be seen or like go to the doctor or have clothes that fit me or honor myself if my body is representative of what happened to me when I was six? Absolutely not. It is my body. And like that is, I think it's an incredibly harmful thing that I think a lot of therapists do. I think a lot of therapists, Gabor Mate is the one that talks about it. Bessel Vanderkoel talks about it. And it is, it's a really, I think it's a really harmful thing to assign to people and to not to not consider it.

SPEAKER_04: 56:08

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_03: 56:09

Just go in a bit deeper, you know.

SPEAKER_04: 56:11

Exactly. Exactly. And it not not allowing things to frame the the whole it, you're like taking in the whole problem and just like, oh, this is it, like correlation is causation kind of thing. And it's like, no, you're not taking a holistic approach to how this person has lived their life. I always say to to patients, you know, it's like you may have learned a coping skill that is not helpful to you now, but you needed that skill to survive to get through to the place that you are currently. And it's so frustrating to hear, you know, people just like gloss over it or assign it to just like, oh, well, this equals that. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_03: 56:52

Well, I mean, just the amount of like thin people I know that have been sexually abused, like it's not, and I think, I think it's just like, yeah, hey, we're all we've like 75% of us have been harmed in some way. Like we're all we've all dealt with it in different ways, you know. And as absolutely, oh, we need to heal. And I want to make the music that helps heal, and I want to do the work that that heals. Um the tempest. Yeah, my mom said that a psychic told her when I was born that I was I was a lucky healer.

SPEAKER_04: 57:30

I love that. A lucky healer. That's beautiful. That's a good tattoo idea, too.

SPEAKER_02: 57:37

There you go. Yeah, yeah. I want to get a tattoo that says genetic code because that's why I'm fat, motherfuckers. It's called genetic code. Yes.

unknown: 57:46

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02: 57:46

You in you in with me, Murph? Let's do it. Let's go. Before we wrap up, I just wanted to ask, because yeah, I know your your Babe Camp and your your work is really about helping people to care for themselves in a you know, healthy-ish, as healthy as possible, whatever healthy means way. If you wanted to give a piece of advice to our community, because we know your community um, you know, probably has really good tools already, but what could we tell our community? What's a good way to take care of themselves? What's a good way a self-care act they could do that would maybe help them with their own internalized fat phobia?

SPEAKER_03: 58:21

I mean, I think a huge thing for me was physically just touching all parts of my body. I think what happens when we have so much shame looking in the mirror is is that we're scared. We're scared. There's the the shame is so loud that you want to avoid not just looking at yourself, but feeling yourself. And I think like just touching your arms, feeling the size of your arms, feeling your belly, touching your belly. I mean, I had a practice for about a year where I would, I, I would take a bath, I would wash every part of me in a very loving way, and I would just out loud to each body part, I love you, arm. Thank you for carrying me through this world. I love you, belly. Thank you for carrying me through this world. Um, and that was a really important ritual to my to to loving myself and then getting rid of my scale. I mean, that was huge. Um, I have so many, I have all my little tips. They're great, they're fantastic. But that was a big one, yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 59:24

Throwing away your scale is it's hard for a lot of people. I uh even some of my best friends, I'm like, y'all, we you you're they're great allies to me and they really care, and they're allies for everybody who are fat, but then they still are addicted to getting on the scale.

SPEAKER_04: 59:42

So, um, Mary, where can people find you? What would be the best avenue? I know that go through all of them, but what's the best way to connect with you?

SPEAKER_03: 59:53

My website has everything all together because I do so much stuff, so it's a it's the best way to sort of find all the different facets of. Of what I do. And that's MarylambertSings.com. Um, but I'm most active on Instagram, and that's at Mary LambertSing with no S. Um, and uh and Facebook as well at Mary Lambert Sing. And um, and I'm trying to do more TikTok stuff, but it's it's so overwhelming. And you're gonna be giving voice lessons or teaching singing or oh my god, I started teaching voice lessons and it is the best thing I've ever done. I love it. I love it. I'm always supposed to do this. I was just made to be a teacher. It's like all of my my grandpa was a teacher, my grandma was a teacher, my great grandpa was a teacher. So it was like all it's in my in my family, and I just love teaching, and it is so fun to sing with people. And I have like I have I've developed my own, you know, style, and I try to make it fun and make it, you know, we end up singing a song at the end of our lesson, and it's just been it's been fun and great.

SPEAKER_02: 1:01:10

I think teachers are angels on earth, they're amazing. Just the amount of work that angels or that teachers and nurses have to have to do, but that's so cool. Singing with you must be like the highlight of their day or week or month if they get to do that. That's cool.

SPEAKER_03: 1:01:26

It's really sweet because I can tell that people are like, oh my god, it's Mary Lambert. And they have to kind of you have to get over that because we're gonna, I'm gonna make you do weird things with your voice. And I have I have some bizarre warm-ups, and I just we're gonna get weird together, is the thing.

SPEAKER_02: 1:01:43

I feel voice lessons are in Asherly's future.

SPEAKER_03: 1:01:46

Come on, let's do it.

SPEAKER_04: 1:01:48

I love it. Well, Mary, this has been an absolute pleasure, and I have so many other questions. So, can we guarantee a round two at some point?

SPEAKER_03: 1:01:58

100%. This has been a blast.

SPEAKER_04: 1:02:00

Yeah.

unknown: 1:02:01

Yay!

SPEAKER_02: 1:02:01

Yeah, thank you guys for having me. The world needs more fat liberation and more community. Speaking of which, we are having an event called Fat Joy October 19th, and Tigris is our keynote, and Murph is going to be one of our speakers as well. And I I saw a quote that you said something about how much joy is on the other side of shame. I love that.

SPEAKER_03: 1:02:22

Yeah, yes, it's true. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 1:02:25

If you're in San Jose, you're invited, you could be uh you'll I'll comp you. I'll comp you a ticket. If you're in San Jose October 19th, we'd love to have you because fat joy is so so rare. We all need more of it, right? And um, yeah. Are you making a music video for Tempest or have you already made one? I need to.

SPEAKER_03: 1:02:41

It's you know, it's like the the true, like the real price of being an artist is really, it's just just I mean, I think it would be awesome to make a video, but I don't want to like half-ass it and I would like to have a budget for it. And there's just I just don't have the money. But I I'm hopeful with doing voice lessons and getting more gigs. I would love to, I would love to make it. But it is, I'm just I'm happy paying my bills right now. Like that's what I can do right now. And um But seeing you at your piano just playing that song is freaking moving. Yeah, I would love, I would love to do it. It's just it's time. I mean, it's like you know, paying the the video person and the editor and all of it. And um, but I I ought to. I want I want to, I desperately want to because it's the single and it's you know it's important to me.

SPEAKER_02: 1:03:36

Visibility for sure. Yeah, fat bodies representation. Absolutely. Well, wonderful. Um, you can find us at bigsexychat.com. You can find us on all the socials, big sexy chat. We love to hear from our listeners and our community. You can always email us at big sexy chat pod at gmail. Well, I'm just gonna go ahead and wrap this up. See you later, alligator. After a while, crocodile.

SPEAKER_03: 1:04:00

Take care, polar bear. Love it.